Watson and...Tiger King?

SPEAKER: You're going to get closer to the tigers and lions here than you would anywhere in the world.

[MUSIC - JOE EXOTIC, "I SAW A TIGER"]

SARAH BALDWIN: Watson and Tiger King? Not a natural pairing for most people. But there is a connection, believe it or not, between the Watson Institute and the Netflix hit documentary. And that's what we'll be getting into on this episode of Trending Globally.

From the Watson Institute at Brown University, this is Trending Globally. I'm Sarah Baldwin. This semester, Watson helped launch something called the John FK Jr. Initiative for Documentary Film and Social Progress. It was created by friends and family of the late John Kennedy, Jr., a brown alum. And its goal is to connect world class documentarians with the Brown community.

And then a few things happened. Most of the screenings and in-person workshops were, of course, postponed. At the same time, a project that one of the founders had been working on became a national phenomenon.

On this episode, Watson's director, Ed Steinfeld, talked with Randall Poster, a classmate of John's, co-founder of the initiative, and music supervisor to some of Hollywood's most distinguished filmmakers. He also oversaw the music for, yes, Tiger King.

Ed and Randall talk about the craft and power of documentaries and what Randall sees as the role of music in telling stories on film. They discuss the inspiration for the JFK Jr. Film Initiative and what to expect from it going forward. And of course, they talk Tiger King. Here is Ed.

ED STEINFIELD: Welcome to this live recording of the Trending Globally podcast from the Watson Institute for International and Public Affairs at Brown University. I'm Ed Steinfeld, the director of the Institute. I am so happy today to be joined by Randall Poster, a world renowned music supervisor in the film and television industry and also a Brown University graduate, class of Nineteen-Eighty-Three.

Randy has shaped the musical identity and sound aesthetic of just an unbelievable range of films over the past 30 years. In addition to working with directors like Richard Linklater, Todd Phillips, Sam Mendes, and Todd Haynes, Randy supervised the scores and soundtracks of all of Wes Anderson's films. And he's worked with Martin Scorsese on Hugo, The Aviator, The Wolf of Wall Street, and The Irishman. The list just goes on and on. It's extraordinary.

Randy won a Grammy award for his work on the soundtrack of the Twenty-Eleven HBO series Boardwalk Empire. But for all of Randall Poster's incredible career achievements, today, we're going to talk about a particular project he's worked on, one relevant to the current moment in which we're all living. And that's the Netflix smash hit Tiger King. Randy, welcome to Trending Globally.

RANDALL POSTER: Nice to be with you, Ed.

ED STEINFIELD: It's so great to have you. When you first became aware of Tiger King, what did you make of the story?

RANDALL POSTER: Well, you know, we got involved sort of as the episodes were taking shape, I mean before even they were really broken down into the eventual episodes. And it just was really-- at first, we just thought about these crazy cat people, you know? And so we knew it was somewhat sensational, but really couldn't have anticipated the response that the shows have gotten.

ED STEINFIELD: I want to get into so many of the social aspects of the documentary and how it relates to the music. But forgive my ignorance, but could we step back a little bit, and could you explain to me, really, what does a music supervisor do?

RANDALL POSTER: Yeah. Well, a music supervisor, it works differently on different film projects. But really, ideally, what a music supervisor does is the person is the person who helps the director or the filmmakers sort of imagine and then execute a musical strategy for the movie.

So it really depends on sort of what the initial needs are. Sometimes when you're doing a feature film, there are on-camera performances that you have to prepare. And then in a documentary, where things are a little bit more-- it's a little bit more of a-- initially, more of a sort of passive musical relationship that you have with the storytelling, it sort of becomes, like, well, how do you plot the sound?

Who do you find to create the wealth of the musical element and the majority of the musical element? And sort of, what other songs or what other variety you might incorporate into the musical spectrum of a film or of a series of episodes?

ED STEINFIELD: So are you thinking both about the total sound aesthetic for the whole project, and then you're also going scene by scene for specifics?

RANDALL POSTER: Yeah, it gets more microscopic as the process narrows. Because, in a certain sense, I mean, they're sort of starting to-- they establish the story. And then the story evolves. So I mean, in this situation where you start with, say, the first episode and try to establish, like, OK, what is the musical tapestry, what is the musical identity, and then you push it forward as best you can or as needed.

And then at a certain point, say, like, well, how do we lend some variety to this? How do we lend some emphasis to this? How do we sometimes use songs for a moment of pause or a moment of reflection? For instance, where you have a song in the last episode where, all of a sudden, you see the guy in the jet ski--

[MUSIC - SURVIVOR, "EYE OF THE TIGER"]

--and your "Eye of the Tiger" by Survivor, which is kind of an obvious musical choice, but it's kind of nice that it comes sort of at the end. And it's sort of not with anybody in a tiger cage, really.

In a sense, there's a moment where you're not in a zoo or an animal sanctuary. You're on the water and on it, seeing a guy on a jet ski. And yet, you're bringing some of the tiger of it all to that moment.

ED STEINFIELD: And so when you're creating that moment, are you working really directly in person with the director and the film editor?

RANDALL POSTER: So I mean, I think in documentary, editorial really shapes the storytelling, right? There isn't necessarily a script that you start with that, OK, let's go shoot the script. The story evolves as the editor and the directors shape it, right? And there's so much music in this movie. It's interesting. It's like, there's so much music in this show.

And a lot of it is really not really calling very much attention to itself. And so I think you just sort of-- you start to plot things. And you kind of say, OK, this seems to be the sound of the show. So there's a process where you're using-- it's called temp music, where you're basically, for the most part, you're taking, say, film scores or scores or pieces of music from other sources, like from other films, other artists, records.

And then at a certain point, some of those get replaced by original score. And then some of those things, you feel like, well, the piece that we have in there, hypothetically, it's from Star Wars. We're not going to be able to afford that or use that. So we have to then go and find some things that will work as those pieces work that are more affordable.

I mean, that's another part of being a music supervisor, is that there's the creative part of it. And then there's also the business and logistical part of it in terms of getting permission and licensing existing material.

ED STEINFIELD: I mean, it's fascinating. And if we can, later on, we'll circle back to some of the technical aspects. But I just have to ask you, how do you think and why do you think Tiger King has become such a social phenomenon?

I think it's-- we're dealing with a lot of very heavy issues right now, of course, with COVID-19. But I think Tiger King, it's become a social phenomenon in the context of this moment in which we're dealing with a global pandemic. And it has to be related somehow, I think, but why and how, in your mind?

RANDALL POSTER: To a certain degree. I mean, I think part of the phenomenon is that people are captive audiences. So there's a voracious appetite for content. And I think it just sort of seemed to hit at a moment where even just the-- you look at the image of Joe Exotic with the tiger that's sort of the key art of the show. And it's so compelling. And it's such an invitation to look at it.

And then I think that it's really remarkable that this character, Joe Exotic, who, on so many levels, is just-- I guess, at a certain point, we're all somewhat left to us to really kind of judge his activities of whether he's guilty or not guilty or not that guilty or less guilty than maybe others were.

But for a guy who's sort of this gun-toting, homosexual polygamist with 200 big cats and, in fact, he's somehow so relatable, you know? And that I mean, you kind of relate to him. You're drawn into his personality. And he's very human. Or he's rendered in a very human way.

And I think that in contrast to maybe some of the other people in this country who we are force fed on a nightly basis, I think that there is the strange-- his strange humanity is comforting in that sense that, somehow, it is a reflection of all of our own-- everyone's own sort of unique personality in a sense.

Or it just makes you feel that as crazy as we are, that somehow-- somehow, to me, I think it's a signal of hope or something in some crazy way. I don't know. I think that's at least my impression of it.

ED STEINFIELD: Yeah, when I started watching, I started as a somewhat reluctant viewer. I thought, why do I really want to waste my time with this? And as soon as I started watching it, I couldn't stop.

And I think part of it was that, yeah, this Joe Exotic character is so central. He's very compelling and, in some ways, sympathetic. I mean, there's that moment where he-- I think it was Joe Exotic describes when he came out to his father. And his father tells him, just promise me you won't-- was it attend his funeral?

RANDALL POSTER: Yeah, he says-- so Joe, he tells a story that he that he's gay and he's miserable. And he feels so alone. And he drives the car off the bridge.

ED STEINFIELD: Yeah, he attempts suicide.

RANDALL POSTER: Yeah, and then you say and his father says-- and he comes out to his family after he survives. And his father says, shake my hand and promise me-- and you're waiting for him say, promise me you won't do this to yourself or promise-- and then he says, promise me you won't come to my funeral, which I've never heard. It's something I've never heard before. It was so unique in just that description.

And I think that was a moment for me that, really, it really drew me into the story in a way that I wouldn't have otherwise. But then it's so crazy is that at the end of the series, it's like you see him with his mother and father. So again, I don't know.

Part of it, too, is, like, well, I don't know that we-- as he performs for the camera and tells the story, I mean, you can take it at face value. And then at some point, you sort of say, well, I'm not quite sure if everything he tells me is the truth. But I mean, even just by looking at him or the fact that his-- the details of his relationships, so just-- so, so unique.

ED STEINFIELD: Yeah, and so that gets to the other side. Again, speaking personally, I felt sympathy for him, but total skepticism. Is anything that he's saying true? Because he's this complete PT Barnum kind of guy. And whether he's running for president or running for the governor of Kansas, I thought, this is crazy. A gay polygamist, gun-toting guy who doesn't know anything about politics, he's running for office.

But then, again, we are in this kind of PT Barnum moment. I don't mean to make a partisan statement here, but our president has that kind of quality to him. And I mean, it may be captivating or appalling, whatever. But it just-- Joe Exotic felt like, a man of the current American moment.

RANDALL POSTER: Right. Well, I mean, again, he was consumed with being a reality TV star, right? I mean, that's sort of part of the story. And yes, our president I think continues to be a reality TV star. And I guess, there is that parallel.

And again, I mean, it's crazy, but is he, on a certain level, is he sort of the antidote to Trump on a certain level? He's sort of seemingly, on a certain level, so accepting and defies every kind of convention. Like you're saying, he carries a gun. He's a libertarian.

But I mean, and also the way, I think, what was struck me so much about the story was how all of these people that he was surrounded with, they were so dedicated to him.

ED STEINFIELD: Right. He has this charisma, somehow.

RANDALL POSTER: Yeah. Or he made-- I mean, again, they showed other elements where he would fly off the hook. And but he sort of made this family of misfits. And I mean, that woman who really at the end is really kind of a sagacious character, the woman who lost her hand loses her hand and is back at the park four days later. And just, again, very rational and very understanding and very compelling.

ED STEINFIELD: Yeah. And I thought this also. It was a statement-- I mean, it's very hard to generalize from any of these outlandish characters, but still, it was not a statement about the coasts. It wasn't a statement about New York and California. It was a statement I think about, well, this is middle America. This is flyover country, so to speak.

RANDALL POSTER: Well, I think it's also, I mean, just to say about the shadow surrounding Joe Exotic. It's like, I don't know whether it's episode 3 or 4 where all of a sudden, you realize, oh, they're all addicted to crystal meth. That's sort of another turn in this order. It's like, oh, I get it now. They're all on crystal meth.

ED STEINFIELD: Right, so there's the whole drug issue suffusing things pretty remarkably. And also-- and you mentioned it earlier-- this idea that everybody is the media star. Everybody is in it for ratings, whether it's Carole Baskin or Doc Antle or Joe Exotic for sure that they're all just trying to generate this content.

RANDALL POSTER: Well, yeah, I mean, it's quite sophisticated when they're talking about the whole copyright infringement and being the first thing that comes up on Google and attracting enough attention and getting enough likes or getting enough viewers. I mean, the ends that people will go to, to find celebrity.

ED STEINFIELD: Yeah. And I don't want to draw kind of ridiculous comparisons, but in some ways, I felt that the Joe Exotic relationship to social media and then his relationship to Carole Baskin, aside from the fact that it ultimately became criminal, it has a kind of a feel-- a similarity to the way, say, President Trump deals with the media. It's his arch enemy, yet it's his partner in driving ratings. I thought the documentary captured that so persuasively.

RANDALL POSTER: Right. It's like I think the lessons that Trump learned from Worldwide Wrestling Association, that you pit the people against each other. And it's sort of this kind of feigned rivalry.

ED STEINFIELD: Yeah, wrestle mania then played out with big cats and then mirroring, to some extent, our contemporary public life. But what about on the issue of sexuality? Because that also is so present, I think, in the film, whether it's LGBT issues or polygamy. And particularly for Joe Exotic, it's so much part of his public persona.

RANDALL POSTER: Well, I mean, you think about it, too. It's like he also is so romantic. I mean, at least it's portrayed that way, right, is that it's so romantic. He wants to be in-- in the sense that he chooses to get married, that he chooses to share the name with the spouses, I mean, it just sort of-- it's so unpredictable.

ED STEINFIELD: Yeah, I felt that way all the time. And it made me feel torn between sympathy and kind of a feeling of, wow, that's really different and out there. And it was really quite incredible.

I have a slightly different question about documentaries in general. So in this particular film, there are films within films within films. You have people like Joe Exotic and Carole Baskin generating all of their content. And then you have a filmmaker trying to make a film. I'm sorry. Rick--

RANDALL POSTER: Eric Goode.

ED STEINFIELD: Well, no, I mean the guy from Inside Edition who is portrayed. And so he's trying to make this film, but his content is all lost. And then you have the filmmakers themselves-- their project you participated in. What's the nature of truth telling from the perspective of those who are making the formal documentary, and then having within it, all of these other internal documentaries?

RANDALL POSTER: Well, I mean, I think what was unique about this was that there was all this footage to draw from, right? I mean, in terms of what they had available to use to sort of show the march of time, really.

And I think it's-- again, I think there's the, to use sort of a film school cliche, there's the sort of the Rashomon element in this story. It's, like, the different perspectives telling you the various truths, their own truth, the manipulated truth. Like, what is the truth? I think that in terms of the last part of the show, where there's who's the guilty party, who's really the manipulator.

And so, I mean, I think that the filmmakers are giving you, the viewer, an opportunity to use your best judgment to figure out, OK, what's the truth here? And that's where, in a sense, too, where I think the outlying characters in the end, the last two episodes, outlying characters, how their testimony gives you a little bit of insight into-- and clearly, you like Joe Exotic better than you like--

ED STEINFIELD: Carole Baskin or Jeff Lowe or any of these other-- and here, I'm just speaking for myself. But I mean, these are not admirable characters. But it is true that I think Joe Exotic is probably presented the most favorably of any of them.

RANDALL POSTER: I mean, and it's also interesting, too, is that with Carole Baskin, I guess, you kind of accept that she killed her husband, right? And that kind of just breezed by, you know? I mean, you're kind of like, oh, OK, she killed her husband and got away with it.

ED STEINFIELD: It's really crazy. Ex ante. I mean, when you were first starting to work on this project, did you have kind of a lesson in mind, or did you have a sense of what this project was ultimately trying to convey? Or did it just seem like kind of a light entertainment?

RANDALL POSTER: Yeah. I mean, I thought it was sort of an anthropological kind of study when I sort of was getting into it. Because Eric Goode, the filmmaker, is a big conservationist and animal rights advocate in terms of he has a big turtle, tortoise sanctuary. That's what he sort of dedicated his life to. But it was-- I mean, I guess, in a way, as it evolved, that I kept just thinking to myself, God, this is really good. It's really great storytelling.

ED STEINFIELD: Yeah, I have to agree. Can I ask a little bit more on the technical side, is there a particular moment in the documentary that you felt the music and the imagery really worked powerfully?

RANDALL POSTER: First of all, I want to say that a woman who works with me regularly, a woman named Megan Curry was very actively involved in the project. And I think, really, to tell you the truth, the music in this film, I mean, there may be a couple of standout moments. We used a Tom Waits song or sang the use of "Eye of the Tiger."

But really, you just wanted to create kind of the atmospheric or enable the filmmakers to create the musical atmosphere that would carry the story through, and not call too much attention to itself and not be too flamboyant. There's no need to-- in other words, you weren't going to be able to compete with these characters.

And there was no need to impede the storytelling with kind of any sort of flashy music moments, except in these couple of areas that the filmmakers sort of pinpointed as areas of pause or a moment of reflection.

ED STEINFIELD: I guess the most flamboyant music moments are the ones where Joe Exotic is doing his own aspirational country singer politician and everything else, in addition to zookeeper.

RANDALL POSTER: Yeah, I mean, that's-- yeah, I mean, again, I mean, that's something good to talk about. I mean, it's also is that that's not-- he neither wrote nor actually sang those songs. So that's the other-- I mean, again, right, great. I mean, again, another part of it. He's this seemingly this zookeeper country singer. It's like, you couldn't make it up.

ED STEINFIELD: Who does-- were those songs commercially produced? Did somebody own the rights to those songs?

RANDALL POSTER: Yeah, so we had to go and we had to license those songs from the writer, performer. Yeah.

ED STEINFIELD: That's so interesting. If it's OK, I'd like to step back a little bit and talk about some of the academic and scholarly issues you've been working with at the Washington Institute and Brown generally on you've been really a key person in working with us on developing the John F. Kennedy Jr. Initiative for Documentary Film and Social Progress. Do you want to say just a bit about some of your own thoughts and aspirations for that initiative?

RANDALL POSTER: I mean, to your point about what is the truth or pursuing the truth or rendering the truth, I think in this specifically, as we started this in this day and age, is that I think that rendering the truth or tracing some of the nuances of the truth are of vital importance to this democracy.

And so I think it's been the objective to bring films and filmmakers to Brown who can tell unique and compelling stories that give the audience an insight into a larger truth in the scope of the particular details of a particular film.

ED STEINFIELD: I feel that one of the things you've really helped me understand is that, on the one hand, film and the arts are an important avenue for truth and truth telling. And for that reason, we've been working very closely with the Brown Arts Initiative here. At the same time, one has to understand this medium and how it's produced and developed, so that one can also be a critical consumer of the product.

RANDALL POSTER: Yeah. Again, I think our objective is to give Brown students the opportunity to get a little bit closer to the process with the hope that some of the people in our audience will be inspired to look forward to making movies. And so hopefully that's a byproduct of our screening series and also some of the forums that we had planned that we're going to put out. Hopefully be able to coast in the fall and going forward.

ED STEINFIELD: Can you say a word about John F. Kennedy Jr, and the ways in which he inspired some of your thinking on this?

RANDALL POSTER: Yeah. I mean, John was my classmate at Brown. And we had worked together while we were at school on a project that brought speakers to shed light and sort of share opinions and insights into what was going on in southern Africa while we were there.

And then subsequently, when we were graduating, I started working on movies. And John started George. We had talked about making some documentary films together. And then George magazine really was, I think, a very unique undertaking.

And I think John was trying to kind of render some of the nuances of politics and politicians and issues in a more unique and digestible and modern way. So hopefully, this program and the evolution of this program will extend John's hopes and ambitions for communication and for storytelling.

ED STEINFIELD: I think that many students at Brown and students at our peer institutions, they're, of course, consumers of film, documentary film. And of course, they want to be critical consumers so they want that kind of knowledge.

But I'm finding more and more students, they want to be creators of this, creators of narrative through film, whether it's through the smartphone and that camera or something more technical. And so I think a lot of people are aspiring in some ways to follow in your footsteps.

RANDALL POSTER: I mean, I think that, in a way, it's never been easier to make movies or to tell visual stories. The fact I mean that people make movies with using a cell phone or there's so many easier means digitally to tell a story, rather than having to necessarily shoot it on film, which, again, I encourage people to try to still try to shoot things on film.

But I mean, I think that we're trying and some of our efforts collectively with the initiative through Watson has been to bring people who are kind of more marquee filmmakers to the university, but also to bring some younger practitioners who can engage students on a very practical level in terms of, OK, where do you begin?

How do you begin? How do you find a visual platform for the stories that-- to pursue the stories that you are interested in telling, or the things that are happening that you think are important to share with a larger audience?

ED STEINFIELD: Randy, you've been so central in so many films and projects, including Tiger King, that have captured the moment for us. In the minute we have left, do you have a piece of advice for people, young or old, who want to get into the business and tell narratives this way?

RANDALL POSTER: I mean, I think my best piece of advice is to find your peer community of people who want to be involved in making movies or telling stories. I mean, for me, in terms of my working on doing music supervision or people who come to me saying, I want to work in music and film, is that I say, well, find your peers who want to direct movies or produce movies and throw in with them. I think that's the most organic way to get involved in filmmaking.

ED STEINFIELD: Randy, you've been fantastic. I'm sorry about only one thing. We're out of time. But I'd really like to urge all of our listeners and viewers to check out Tiger King on Netflix if you haven't already. Most people have already watched it. And if you like the kind of programming we're doing here, please subscribe to the Watson Institute's Trending Globally podcasts, which is available wherever you access your podcasts. And Randy, thanks again.

RANDALL POSTER: Thanks, Ed.

SARAH BALDWIN: This episode of Trending Globally was produced by Dan Richards and Jackson Cantrell. Our theme music is by Henry Bloomfield. Additional music by the Blue Dot Sessions. I'm Sarah Baldwin.

You can subscribe to us on Apple Podcasts, Stitcher, Spotify, or wherever you listen to podcasts. If you like what you hear, please leave us a rating and review on iTunes. It really helps others find the show.

We'll be bringing you more episodes soon on the coronavirus pandemic as it unfolds, from our community of experts at Watson and Brown. For more information about Trending Globally and Watson's other podcasts, go to watson.brown.edu. Thanks for listening, and tune in soon for another episode of Trending Globally.